The Gaming Den

I've always wondered how many points one would have to plug into the speak language to speak every language in D&D. But I obviously don't know every language in D&D, in fact I know very few past the languages listed in the core rule book. Yes I know there’s a spell for this, but that’s not the point. It’s just a point of curiosity, are there any estimates as to how much of your hard earned skill points you’d have to sink into Speak Language to make speaking roper seem like no big deal?

My guess would be ~100. A really disturbing proportion of MM entries have their own language.

The following languages are listed in the speak language skill: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Druidic*, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Gnoll, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan, Terran, Undercommon. I also remember the following: Aboleth, Animal**, Blink Dog, Grimlock, Roper, Sahuagin, Treant and Worg.
*Druidic is only known to druids, so you'd need to be a druid.
**Yes, really. Forest gnomes get "a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest animals"

That's 28 total, and there's probably a lot more Forest Gnome Druids get 5 languages by default, Common, Sylvan, Elven and Animal. If we assume they start with 18 Int, that's 4 more for a total of 9 before skills. Which, in turn, means you need 19 skill points to get everything on that list above. You're done at level 15.

Then there's weird edge cases, like Dark Speech and the Words of Creation. Outsiders automatically know the one that ties to their alignment subtype (Dark=Evil, Creation=Good). Supposedly these languages aren't really great for communication, since they're basically pure magic, and a mortal needs a specific feat to use them. That feat (lit. Dark Speech or Words of Creation, BoVD/ED) allows use of the language to perform specific actions, and presumably a fluency with them. There's no real mechanical system for what happens when you use the words "casually," though there should be if they're so magical. Otherwise it basically boils down to "You speak to the guard in Dark Speech, he has no clue what you said, but he pissed his pants because the words are so evil."

If I were running a game, I'd say the two can be used to communicate, but are somewhat unreliable, since they have difficulty communicating ideas opposed to the philosophy of their outsiders (No, you can't tell your succubus girlfriend you love her in Dark Speech. You can tell her you want to rape her, but hey, she's a succubus, to her that's about the same thing. No you can't tell the Solar to fuck off in WoC, at best you can tell him to go fornicate with himself, but hey, same thing.) Also I'd say that just communication level fluency can be acquired through Speak Language, but maybe requires two ranks, and the feats specifically allow you to tap into the metaphysical potential. I'd also say that you could combine them to communicate better, but it would require your audience to know both, and probably an Int check on both sides.

Well, at some point (mainly in the Forgotten Realms or another setting with dozens of languages) it becomes desirable to pick up Polyglot.

Yeah... that really needs to be made non-epic.

Ancient History wrote:Well, at some point (mainly in the Forgotten Realms or another setting with dozens of languages) it becomes desirable to pick up Polyglot.

That is only speaking and writing though, what about drow sign language!

ishy wrote:

Ancient History wrote:Well, at some point (mainly in the Forgotten Realms or another setting with dozens of languages) it becomes desirable to pick up Polyglot.

That is only speaking and writing though, what about drow sign language!

Make it one of your languages for meeting the prereq.

It's not necessarily epic - granted, attributes above 20 are rare for low-level characters, but far from unheard of, and characters with high Int get free languages at chargen anyway.

And there's at least one lower-level feat that lets you learn enough to "get by" in any language after exposure to it, but I forget the details on it.

Prak_Anima wrote:Then there's weird edge cases, like Dark Speech and the Words of Creation. Outsiders automatically know the one that ties to their alignment subtype (Dark=Evil, Creation=Good). Supposedly these languages aren't really great for communication, since they're basically pure magic, and a mortal needs a specific feat to use them. That feat (lit. Dark Speech or Words of Creation, BoVD/ED) allows use of the language to perform specific actions, and presumably a fluency with them. There's no real mechanical system for what happens when you use the words "casually," though there should be if they're so magical. Otherwise it basically boils down to "You speak to the guard in Dark Speech, he has no clue what you said, but he pissed his pants because the words are so evil."

If I were running a game, I'd say the two can be used to communicate, but are somewhat unreliable, since they have difficulty communicating ideas opposed to the philosophy of their outsiders (No, you can't tell your succubus girlfriend you love her in Dark Speech. You can tell her you want to rape her, but hey, she's a succubus, to her that's about the same thing. No you can't tell the Solar to fuck off in WoC, at best you can tell him to go fornicate with himself, but hey, same thing.) Also I'd say that just communication level fluency can be acquired through Speak Language, but maybe requires two ranks, and the feats specifically allow you to tap into the metaphysical potential. I'd also say that you could combine them to communicate better, but it would require your audience to know both, and probably an Int check on both sides.

I think Dark Speech kills you if you speak it without the feat.

Also, what about truenaming? Do you need to know every utterance, because that ain't happening.

The "magical languages" (Dark Speech, Words of Creation, Truenaming, some special uses of Draconic, those word-people from Races of Destiny, etc.) are bizarre and bullshit. A perfect example of bad fluff loosely linking different mechanics with no rhyme or reason.

Personally I really like the fluff behind Dark Speech and Words of Creation. Could use a better mechanical implementation, though. Which is generally how I feel about most of the BoVD.

ishy wrote:

Ancient History wrote:Well, at some point (mainly in the Forgotten Realms or another setting with dozens of languages) it becomes desirable to pick up Polyglot.

That is only speaking and writing though, what about drow sign language!

I love that they still feel the need to keep pure barbarians from writing.

Ancient History wrote:It's not necessarily epic - granted, attributes above 20 are rare for low-level characters, but far from unheard of, and characters with high Int get free languages at chargen anyway.

And there's at least one lower-level feat that lets you learn enough to "get by" in any language after exposure to it, but I forget the details on it.

[Epic] feats all require epic levels. Although a cheater kobold could do it.

How angry would people be if language in D&D were hardwired into the brain, and every creature capable of speech spontaneously learned Common at 1-2 years old?
There's a lot of fiction where forehead aliens on isolated planets speak English, or children raised by wolves speak caveman-speak instead of nothing. D&D already isn't comfortable with realistic language distribution where you'd need a new language every 1-200 miles like in renaissance Europe.

I don't miss alignment languages.

darkmaster wrote:I've always wondered how many points one would have to plug into the speak language to speak every language in D&D.

Only as many as he has NWPs + additional languages as granted by INT if NWPs are being used.

so with an INT of 25 having 20 bonus languages, Rath (a warrior) would have been able to learn 26 languages at level 18.

Grek wrote:*Druidic is only known to druids, so you'd need to be a druid.

Or a 1st level druid can teach you. With Dominate Person, he won't even have to atone.

CapnTthePirateG wrote:

Prak_Anima wrote:Then there's weird edge cases, like Dark Speech and the Words of Creation. Outsiders automatically know the one that ties to their alignment subtype (Dark=Evil, Creation=Good). Supposedly these languages aren't really great for communication, since they're basically pure magic, and a mortal needs a specific feat to use them. That feat (lit. Dark Speech or Words of Creation, BoVD/ED) allows use of the language to perform specific actions, and presumably a fluency with them. There's no real mechanical system for what happens when you use the words "casually," though there should be if they're so magical. Otherwise it basically boils down to "You speak to the guard in Dark Speech, he has no clue what you said, but he pissed his pants because the words are so evil."

If I were running a game, I'd say the two can be used to communicate, but are somewhat unreliable, since they have difficulty communicating ideas opposed to the philosophy of their outsiders (No, you can't tell your succubus girlfriend you love her in Dark Speech. You can tell her you want to rape her, but hey, she's a succubus, to her that's about the same thing. No you can't tell the Solar to fuck off in WoC, at best you can tell him to go fornicate with himself, but hey, same thing.) Also I'd say that just communication level fluency can be acquired through Speak Language, but maybe requires two ranks, and the feats specifically allow you to tap into the metaphysical potential. I'd also say that you could combine them to communicate better, but it would require your audience to know both, and probably an Int check on both sides.

I think Dark Speech kills you if you speak it without the feat.

Also, what about truenaming? Do you need to know every utterance, because that ain't happening.

Dark Speech's entry in Variant Rules says that it's just a really difficult language, and must spoken with care to even attempt to convey information because it "can bring harm to both parties." I was wrong before, though, Outsiders just occasionally know a smattering of it (likely such useful phrases as "where is the piss bucket, you inbred swine of a whore's son.")
The feat entry, however, says that a mortal can never speak it without the feat, because to do so means instantaneous death. There are supposedly some spells, such as Dread Word, which are safe uses of it.

Honestly, this is all bullshit, though I do really like the idea of a language that has a lengthy lexicon of terms for hatred, malice, cruelty, and so forth, but has to rely on newspeak-esque clumsy terms like "notcruelty" to speak of kindness, love, benevolence, etc.

I would redo it as a "dark and forbidden, yadda, blah" language of ancient fiends with only words for evil concepts, that requires speaking in contrast to speak of good concepts. A feat would allow one to use it to warp reality, and I'd probably make speaking it a double selection (two language picks, or two ranks of Speak Language) to merely use it for conveying information. I would not say "yes, you can speak it, but if you don't take a feat tax trying do so makes rocks fall on your character."

Words of Creation are pretty much Dark Speech times -1, except you absolutely are required to take the feat to use it at all. Again, this is dumb.
Though for once, Book of Erectile Disfunction comes out ahead, because it specifically says what happens if you try to speak the WoC without the feat, if good, you're feebleminded, if evil, rocks fall, you die.

Everything good about the Dark Speech fluff can just be grafted on to the existing Infernal or Abyssal languages, though.

Yeah, pretty much. It basically just ties to my desire for a language that doesn't care what evil hat you wear, just that you wear an evil hat at all.

Grek wrote:The following languages are listed in the speak language skill: Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Druidic*, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Gnoll, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan, Terran, Undercommon. I also remember the following: Aboleth, Animal**, Blink Dog, Grimlock, Roper, Sahuagin, Treant and Worg.
*Druidic is only known to druids, so you'd need to be a druid.
**Yes, really. Forest gnomes get "a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest animals"

That's 28 total, and there's probably a lot more Forest Gnome Druids get 5 languages by default, Common, Sylvan, Elven and Animal. If we assume they start with 18 Int, that's 4 more for a total of 9 before skills. Which, in turn, means you need 19 skill points to get everything on that list above. You're done at level 15.

Sounds like you're also forgetting Umber Hulk, I believe they had their own language too. Also, not sure what the Slaadi spoke, don't think they had their own GIANT FROG language.

As for that "epic" feat, I agree, lot of feats they consider in those levels don't apply, hell even "Use Rope" tricks at that level should like have their DC halved at least, for something that's a 1st level spell! As well that seems if that skill to progress, should be able to speak all languages somewhere between 3rd-7th level (earliest-latest casters get the equivalent from the Tongues spell).

Prak_Anima wrote:Yeah... that really needs to be made non-epic.

Considering that Tongues does the same thing that polyglot does, and it's what, a 3rd level spell? It seems silly to actually make the feat epic.

TheFlatline wrote:

Prak_Anima wrote:Yeah... that really needs to be made non-epic.

Considering that Tongues does the same thing that polyglot does, and it's what, a 3rd level spell? It seems silly to actually make the feat epic.

Well this feat allows reading and writing too, and is available for non-magic users!

ishy wrote:

TheFlatline wrote:

Prak_Anima wrote:Yeah... that really needs to be made non-epic.

Considering that Tongues does the same thing that polyglot does, and it's what, a 3rd level spell? It seems silly to actually make the feat epic.

Well this feat allows reading and writing too, and is available for non-magic users!

Still no reason for it to come online only past, say, 7th level. Hell, I'd make it a sixth level accessible feat.